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Open Thread: Buffy Update |
There will be a post on Ted next week. Tonight we watched Bad Eggs. At some point I will have to wrestle with the fact that I am apparently the only person on earth Not Enamored With the character of Joyce Summers. I don't know what that says about me. Is there a personality test based on which characters on Buffy The Vampire Slayer you like?
19 comments:
How much am I looking forward to reading your take on Ted? A LOT.
And if it helps at all, I had no idea until just this moment that anyone had strong feelings about Joyce Summers at all, much less enamorement (or... whatever actual word I should use there). I mean, she's ok I guess? I wouldn't say I hate her, certainly, but I wouldn't say I love her either. Probably if I were to make a list of Buffy characters, there's a good chance I would forget her existence entirely.
Which is kind of sad, actually, since "Slayer's Mom" actually has lots of potential for awesomeness, now that I think about it.
Ha, that does help, actually. Tonight I learned that she has a dedicated following over at Mark Watches which sort of took me by surprise after I broke off mid-Ted post to talk about Joyce for 43 paragraphs or so. Apparently I had FEELINGS, and Bad Eggs has not helped them go away.
(I love Mark's read of The Hunger Games, btw. I cannot recommend it hard enough.)
I think that Joyce improves a lot further into the series -- she suffers a lot from the unevenness of season 1, and it carries on with her a lot longer. There's no real defined turning point, but she grows a lot from a flat, not particularly likable character (I'm sure there's a name for her in TV tropes, she's the wife trying to keep her guy from having fun, currently embodied by Skyler from Breaking Bad) who doesn't know the truth to an important, if ultimately secondary, part of the Scoobies.
And lucky you, you're about to get to the meat of main season 2 arc which is so good.
My sister has always hated Joyce Summer's, but that has a lot to do with her personal issues with our mother.
I don't love her. There were a few people talking about why they didn't in Mark's Ted post.
My full feelings about Joyce are informed by spoilers from your current position. Thus, my inner Garibaldi impersonation says, "Ah, nuts."
Let's see, how to phrase this... Joyce influences Buffy more when Buffy isn't dealing with her directly in their mother-daughter relationship. As the seasons progress, Joyce ultimately becomes more sympathetic to the audience and the cast.
Yeah... Joyce Summers starts off as a not-particularly likeable character. She's the High School Mom who means well, but who is too busy with her own (admittedly legitimate) concerns to see what's really going on with her daughter. She does eventually develop more, but in the early seasons she's as much of an obstacle as a character.
I kind of see Joyce in the early season more as somebody who is struggling with the fact that her daughter is clearly not communicating with her, in light of the fact that she's displaying increasingly distressing behavior.
It doesn't exactly get brought up a lot, but we should recall that the series opens up with Buffy transferring to Sunnydale High because she -burnt down- part of her old school. I, for one, gather the implication that Joyce never really received a satisfactory explanation as to why she did that, and thus keeps not knowing what to make of her daughter.
I would be interested to know specifically what Ana dislikes about Joyce, though.
Although, considering the episode in question, I wonder if it might be something along the lines of "in the face of a daughter with clear problems, Joyce appears more concerned with maintaining her own comfort zone".
Not that I wish to impose on you, just wondering at some things. It has, after all, been a while since I watched that stuff.
Fair warning. Joyce IMO hasn't reached her nadir or anything like. (Avoiding spoilers for when that is).
For what it's worth, I hated Joyce up through the end of S3, and the resentment carried over through a season and a half.
I find Joyce irritating most of the time. At best she's bland. At worst I hope she gets eaten in a dignified way. Then again I'm only on season 4 (and stuck there as it has so far been so bad) so I might be missing something in her over all ark. She doesn't really listen to Buffy or trust her to make her own choices, which I know many parents do but (spoiler) your kid is the slayer and has been without you knowing for years! You'd think that would earn a little trust.
Oh yeah, Joyce doesn't improve in season 2 at all, I think, and I don't think the first half of season 3 responds appropriately to how she acted in season 2, but by the back half of season 3 you can see a real change in her -- she's a character instead of an obstacle with lines -- and they do a few interesting things with her that are sort of in response to what she did in earlier seasons.
For the most part, my reaction to Joyce Summers is "meh". However (ROT13 for spoilers):
Ba gur bgure unaq, fur ebpxrq va gur rcvfbqr jurer Fcvxr vf fvggvat naq qevaxvat ubg pubpbyngr jvgu Wblpr va ure xvgpura.
I'm heading there on an express train.
A major problem, I think, is that writers seem to forget that Zany Parental Antics can come off very easily as callous and abusive, in the same way that LULZ XANDER OBSESSED WITH BUFFY can come off as Creepy Nice Guy.
I don't see how leading a violent and dangerous life behind your mother's back would make your mother more likely to trust you when she does become aware of it.
I understand the character's initial shock. If I found out my kid had been leading a super duper secret dangerous life, I would freak out. However after my initial panic, I'd stop and think "Wait, vampires, demons, and all sorts of awful things are real. My daughter is the Chosen One, best equipped to protect the world from them, and has been protecting me without my even knowing. Maybe I should try to make her life easier and help rather then try to stop her" I think that merits a little trust. Joyce never gives a flip about anyone's thoughts or feelings besides her own.
SPOILER
Like when she tells Angel at the end of Season 3 that he needs to leave Buffy for her own protection. She doesn't talk to Buffy about her concerns, she just bypasses her to prey on Angel's insecurities and robs Buffy of the chance to have that conversation with Angel herself and grow as a person. Why? Because she doesn't care what Buffy has to say. She doesn't trust Buffy enough to be able to make the "right" choice, so she goes around Buffy to try to avoid giving her the choice.
It has been a very long time since I watched Buffy, so I've got nostalgia goggles on when I talk about Joyce. I do feel that she is meant to be that Useless Parent, but also represent the parent that many teenagers feel they have that they cannot relate to or communicate with. Joyce isn't evil, just someone who has no idea how to deal with having a teenage daughter with teenage problems and looks at her own teenage years through the lens of her own experience. When you're a teenager, high school problems are the be all, end all extent of your universe. If you're lucky, you don't face the big stuff until much later. Joyce, I think, came from that background and just assumes her daughter is the same as she was.
Does this make her less than observant? Yes. But she's also just been through a divorce and is trying to cope with her apparently delinquent daughter who refused to tell her anything. She's self absorbed, rather like how Buffy is, and like most of the adults in Sunnydale refuses to see what is going on. A metaphor for the parent who doesn't notice that her daughter is getting into gangs or drugs.
Do I think Joyce could have done better? God yes. Do I think she is the worst mother ever? No, not by a long shot. Do I think she could improve? Yes. I think she gets more... aware, as time moves on. Not perfect, but she tries, and parents are human and fallible.
TR: Threatening abuse, Ignored reports of abuse
Oh wait!
Oh I remember now!
Buffy reports that Ted threatened physical violence against her, and Joyce does not take it seriously.
That's the mark, isn't it?
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