Today Disqus pushed their 2012 interface to Shakesville, and are claiming that they plan to push to everyone soon. (They claim to have sent all site owners emails, but I've not received one.) Disqus 2012 is basically godawful. The issues we're seeing on Shakesville include (but are not limited to):
1. No way to flatten comments; all comments are nested/threaded now.
This is bad for people who have certain information processing disorders.
2. No way to turn off the new "downvote" option.
This is bad for people who have certain anxiety triggers.
3. No way to comment and/or moderate from mobile devices.
This is bad for people who can't reliably access the site from work.
If you've been following this blog for even a cursory period of time, you'll note that all those categories apply to me, the blog mistress. Which means that 2013 is potentially going to be a super-fun year for me! Except only not.
If you are on Twitter at all, and if you have the time and spoons to help, please retweet Melissa's tweets to DisqusHelp. If we're going to have a chance at addressing these issues, the burden is apparently on us to convince Disqus that the user base needs these features, and I think we have a better chance piggy-backing on the Shakesville change-over tonight than to do this all over again in a month (or whenever) with Ramblings.
Thank you in advance.
35 comments:
And, as it turns out, it becomes much harder to see who are moderators, too. Just in case someone wanted to know who they were potentially getting on the bad side of.
I don't know if it will work the same way with the new version, but on websites I visit that have both the up and downvotes options on, the "highest rated" comments are moved to the top of the thread, and the rest are placed in order of how many ups they have. Any conversations the comments inspire are set out below them.
So that may be what we're looking at here now, if Disqus doesn't change?
Baby_Raptor (nice name, btw!): yeah, that's the way I've seen it in the past too. Which is not actually a good thing on an activism site, where the statement which is most unpopular amongst the world in general may actually be a VERY IMPORTANT statement that needs to be, by default, VERY VISIBLE.
I also really, really hate the idea of separate conversations coming from each comment... for so very many reasons, I hate this...
Baby_Raptor (nice name, btw!): yeah, that's the way I've seen it in the past too. Which is not actually a good thing on an activism site, where the statement which is most unpopular amongst the world in general may actually be a VERY IMPORTANT statement that needs to be, by default, VERY VISIBLE.
I also really, really hate the idea of separate conversations coming from each comment... for so very many reasons, I hate this...
Your tweets were awesome, thank you. I don't know if they have a character limit, but they have a survey form here, if you want: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/5RBPTTZ
What's really concernful is that we're seeing on Shakesville that we can no longer edit on the same page -- we're being forced to use the Disqus dashboard to edit comments (like, to add a content note) and the dashboard is *very* broken and fussy. So they've increased moderator-workload in multiple aspects. o.O
Your tweets were awesome, thank you. I don't know if they have a character limit, but they have a survey form here, if you want: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/5RBPTTZ
What's really concernful is that we're seeing on Shakesville that we can no longer edit on the same page -- we're being forced to use the Disqus dashboard to edit comments (like, to add a content note) and the dashboard is *very* broken and fussy. So they've increased moderator-workload in multiple aspects. o.O
...oh, ew. Plus if your computer is a little slow, like mine, that's an extra step that can wind up taking much longer than expected.
...oh, ew. Plus if your computer is a little slow, like mine, that's an extra step that can wind up taking much longer than expected.
Honestly? I suspect that kind of commenting system works well on very casual blogs where people don't intend to read the entire comment thread, where order doesn't matter, and where there is no real "topic" to stay on. I note that Disqus' new commenting system works GREAT for, say, the Disqus blog where their PR team posts updates.
What it works very poorly for are in-depth communities where everyone wants to follow the conversation as it occurred in order to understand the complexity of the conversation as it evolved.
That's almost exactly what I said in a recent tweet (although, y'know... shorter.)
Another thing that bugged me was how, in their report, they talked about how it lightens the workload on the moderators.
Ok... first of all, for all that we keep a tight rein on stuff here, it doesn't really feel like there's much of a moderating burden. In fact, when I see something that needs attending to, half the time by the time I've responded someone's already beaten me to the punch. (And then I have a sad, cuz I was too slow to wear my nifty moderator hat ;) )
Second, the moderator's workload exists for a reason. I don't want a comment to be more or less visible, or even hidden, based on what random voters decide to say about it; in order to keep a space safe, 1) comments need to be listed in a way that makes them most accessible, 2) commentors need to be able to post without worrying about downvotes, and 3) IF a comment needs to go away, that should be the moderators/blogmistress's job, and ONLY their job.
(I did tweet something to that effect and got a thank-you back from disqushelp, so... yay?)
Is there a way to send an email to them? I just feel like I'd like to be able to make a case using something more than 160 characters...
Honestly? I suspect that kind of commenting system works well on very casual blogs where people don't intend to read the entire comment thread, where order doesn't matter, and where there is no real "topic" to stay on. I note that Disqus' new commenting system works GREAT for, say, the Disqus blog where their PR team posts updates.
What it works very poorly for are in-depth communities where everyone wants to follow the conversation as it occurred in order to understand the complexity of the conversation as it evolved.
That's almost exactly what I said in a recent tweet (although, y'know... shorter.)
Another thing that bugged me was how, in their report, they talked about how it lightens the workload on the moderators.
Ok... first of all, for all that we keep a tight rein on stuff here, it doesn't really feel like there's much of a moderating burden. In fact, when I see something that needs attending to, half the time by the time I've responded someone's already beaten me to the punch. (And then I have a sad, cuz I was too slow to wear my nifty moderator hat ;) )
Second, the moderator's workload exists for a reason. I don't want a comment to be more or less visible, or even hidden, based on what random voters decide to say about it; in order to keep a space safe, 1) comments need to be listed in a way that makes them most accessible, 2) commentors need to be able to post without worrying about downvotes, and 3) IF a comment needs to go away, that should be the moderators/blogmistress's job, and ONLY their job.
(I did tweet something to that effect and got a thank-you back from disqushelp, so... yay?)
Is there a way to send an email to them? I just feel like I'd like to be able to make a case using something more than 160 characters...
Honestly? I suspect that kind of commenting system works well on very casual blogs where people don't intend to read the entire comment thread, where order doesn't matter, and where there is no real "topic" to stay on. I note that Disqus' new commenting system works GREAT for, say, the Disqus blog where their PR team posts updates.
What it works very poorly for are in-depth communities where everyone wants to follow the conversation as it occurred in order to understand the complexity of the conversation as it evolved.
Disqus had the tools to pull how many users were using flat comments, but they either did not do so or did not care when the result wasn't 100%. It is a common accessibility issue for people to assume that because something isn't used by the MAJORITY that therefore it is not use AT ALL. That is unfortunate, to say the least.
Honestly? I suspect that kind of commenting system works well on very casual blogs where people don't intend to read the entire comment thread, where order doesn't matter, and where there is no real "topic" to stay on. I note that Disqus' new commenting system works GREAT for, say, the Disqus blog where their PR team posts updates.
What it works very poorly for are in-depth communities where everyone wants to follow the conversation as it occurred in order to understand the complexity of the conversation as it evolved.
Disqus had the tools to pull how many users were using flat comments, but they either did not do so or did not care when the result wasn't 100%. It is a common accessibility issue for people to assume that because something isn't used by the MAJORITY that therefore it is not use AT ALL. That is unfortunate, to say the least.
That's it. I say we feed them to a sarlacc.
Seriously, it's like they made every bad choice they could. Why???
That's it. I say we feed them to a sarlacc.
Seriously, it's like they made every bad choice they could. Why???
One of the view options -- in fact, the DEFAULT view option -- for Disqus 2012 threads is to sort by "best" comments, which means that votes do alter the arrangement of the comments.
Individuals can change this setting for themselves, and I *think* it's a one-time change, but it does mean that people who are new to a thread and/or haven't made the change will see a different version of everything.
OMFGWTFBBQ.
One of the view options -- in fact, the DEFAULT view option -- for Disqus 2012 threads is to sort by "best" comments, which means that votes do alter the arrangement of the comments.
Individuals can change this setting for themselves, and I *think* it's a one-time change, but it does mean that people who are new to a thread and/or haven't made the change will see a different version of everything.
OMFGWTFBBQ.
I really, really hate the downvote thing.
No, it's not an anxiety trigger for me. But on communities that have downvotes, there's a tendency for conversations to turn into pissing contests - no bueno. By and large we AVOID the pissing contest mentality here via moderation - the fact that we can't keep that civility enforced when it comes to the downvotes bothers me.
I'm also a little concerned about some of the language that study uses, about comments that "rise to the surface" and the need for Disqus to identify quality comments. Is it implying that the number of up or down votes may affect where a comment is placed or how visible it is? Because that... is double plus no bueno.
I really, really hate the downvote thing.
No, it's not an anxiety trigger for me. But on communities that have downvotes, there's a tendency for conversations to turn into pissing contests - no bueno. By and large we AVOID the pissing contest mentality here via moderation - the fact that we can't keep that civility enforced when it comes to the downvotes bothers me.
I'm also a little concerned about some of the language that study uses, about comments that "rise to the surface" and the need for Disqus to identify quality comments. Is it implying that the number of up or down votes may affect where a comment is placed or how visible it is? Because that... is double plus no bueno.
It's actually worse than that: there are THREE comment threads per post, thanks to their code.
http://www.shakesville.com/2013/03/blog-note.html#comment-829563573
Oh for fucks sake.
Oh for fucks sake.
I got kind of confused as to which ones were the important ones to be retweeted, so I just RT'd the ones of yours I saw. If there's something else Important, feel free to point me to it either here or on there. (@Velvet_Remedy)
I got kind of confused as to which ones were the important ones to be retweeted, so I just RT'd the ones of yours I saw. If there's something else Important, feel free to point me to it either here or on there. (@Velvet_Remedy)
Thank you! I think (hope) the tweets are working. They've promised to give Liss some actual answers "tonight", although obvs there's no guarantee the answers will be useful...
Thank you! I think (hope) the tweets are working. They've promised to give Liss some actual answers "tonight", although obvs there's no guarantee the answers will be useful...
Looking at the conversation (in as much as I could follow it) it sounded as though the moble version and the non-moble version would now have completely different comments on them. Whut.
Looking at the conversation (in as much as I could follow it) it sounded as though the moble version and the non-moble version would now have completely different comments on them. Whut.
I don't understand Twitter enough to help. :(
I stare in stunned disbelief at #3, though. Did they miss the memo on how popular mobile devices are? I mean, really. (Not that the other two aren't bad, but that one appears to be them deciding that they really want to be replaced.)
I don't understand Twitter enough to help. :(
I stare in stunned disbelief at #3, though. Did they miss the memo on how popular mobile devices are? I mean, really. (Not that the other two aren't bad, but that one appears to be them deciding that they really want to be replaced.)
But if you have an anxiety disorder that is triggered by anonymous hatred/dislike, having 1 of 4 votes on any given comment is deeply troubling. That's one major reason why I'm no longer involved in the Amazon.com community anymore, despite having numerous friends over there.
So a 25% average downvote rate is not a good thing AT ALL in those circumstances.
But if you have an anxiety disorder that is triggered by anonymous hatred/dislike, having 1 of 4 votes on any given comment is deeply troubling. That's one major reason why I'm no longer involved in the Amazon.com community anymore, despite having numerous friends over there.
So a 25% average downvote rate is not a good thing AT ALL in those circumstances.
To play devil's advocate, that statistic is coupled with the decrease flagging rate (which means less abuse of a server-taxing feature). Upvoting also went up, and that's a plus.
However, I do agree that there should be an option to disable downvotes, since not all Disqus communities are full of users who like to bring bile and nastiness to the discussion. I can already see that this blog doesn't need downvoting.
Hopefully, Disqus pre-2012 will continue to be available for bloggers like you.
To play devil's advocate, that statistic is coupled with the decrease flagging rate (which means less abuse of a server-taxing feature). Upvoting also went up, and that's a plus.
However, I do agree that there should be an option to disable downvotes, since not all Disqus communities are full of users who like to bring bile and nastiness to the discussion. I can already see that this blog doesn't need downvoting.
Hopefully, Disqus pre-2012 will continue to be available for bloggers like you.
Please note the irony that Disqus believes that a 25% average downvote rate is a GOOD thing.
Please note the irony that Disqus believes that a 25% average downvote rate is a GOOD thing.
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